Additional Retired Pirate Uniform Numbers

Last Updated 22 February 1997

The topic on Retired Uniform Numbers has interested me for some time. I looked at other MLB teams to see what they had done with retired uniform numbers. I looked at Pirate history and came up with a few possibilities for future Pirate Retired Uniform Numbers (here is a quick link to the Pirate discussion).

First, a few general comments:

My source for this information is the Sport Network Web Site (various team pages); http://www.sportsnetwork.com/mlb/teams I collect my data at least a year ago; some teams may have changed their lists in that year, or the data may have been initially incorrect.
By design, Billy Meyer's selection as a retired Bucco number is excluded from discussion here. His selection makes no sense and can not be explained by anyone in (or out) of the Pirate team offices.

Player Numbers on uniforms were not common practice throughout the leagues until 1932. Many great players finished their playing careers before numbers were used. Interestingly, Honus Wagner's #33 that is retired is a number he wore while coaching the Bucs. Honus quit playing after the 1917 season - long before numbers were used. The Giants have an interesting approach to this dilema; they have retired two "names" (McGraw and Mathewson). By my records, they are the only team to retire names. The Tigers haven't retired Ty Cobb's name - there is one example of a plank holder in the Hall of Fame who is not remembered with a retired number/name.

Some players have their numbers retired by different teams.
Casey Stengle: Yankees and Mets
Rod Carew: Twins and Angels (does he wear #29 as a coach?)
Nolan Ryan: Rangers and Angels (but not Houston)
Hank Aaron: Braves and Brewers

The Yankees have retired the same number for 2 different players. #8 Yogi Berra and Bill Dickey

The Orioles retired Eddie Murray's number and he wasn't retired from baseball yet. Eddie returned to Baltimore in 1996, and they had to get his #33 off the wall for him.

Some players have their number retired by a team you wouldn't expect. Would you guess that Steve Garvey's number is retired as a Dodger or a Padre? 14 years in LA, 5 years in San Diego; the Padres retired Garvey's number - go figure. Someone mentioned Frank Robinson; 10 years in Cinci (6-time all-star), 6 years in Baltimore (4-time all-star) and the O's retire his number. Rollie Fingers - 9 years with the A's, 4 in San Diego, and a final 4 in Milwaukee - the Brewers retire his number. Hank Aaron: 222 games as a Brewer.

Some franchises are completely forgotten: The Senators, and the Philadelphia A's are a couple examples of forgotten franchises in the arena of retired uniform numbers. I don't think the history of the St Louis Browns or Seattle Pilots are missed too much in this discussion though.
The amount of numbers retired by a franchise cover a wide range. 13 numbers are retired from the Yankees (14 adding Mattingly); 8 for the Bucs, Dodgers, Giants, and Cardinals; 7 for the White Sox; 5 for the Braves, Indians, and Orioles; the quantity of retired numbers goes down to zero for the Marlins, Rockies, Blue Jays, and Mariners. Some of the old-time franchises (Reds, Cubs, A's) have only 2 retired numbers each.

Now, a few specific points about the Pirates:

Entry in the Hall of Fame does not equal a retired uniform number:

My list of Pirates in the Hall of Fame includes 36 players, Managers, and Execs. That would be a lot of numbers (or names) to retire. Should the Bucs retire Hank Greenberg's #5 for the one season he spent with the team? Probably not. Additionally, we wouldn't want to exclude certain Pirate Greats (Maz and Murtaugh) from retiring their numbers based on whether or not the Hall of Fame calls or not. Still, this point is valid; are there Pirate Hall of Famers whose numbers should be retired?

A player must have a full career with the same club:

That would exclude Ralph Kiner (3 years of 10 were with Chi/Cle), or even Honus Wagner (3 years in Louisville to start his career). But I think it is fair to say that a good portion of player's career must have been spent in a Bucco uniform. This may exclude any future consideration of retiring Barry Bonds' number as he accumulates additional years of Major League service.

Post Season Play is required:

Well, it applies to most of the Bucco list, except Ralph Kiner. Ralph was on some of the worst Bucco teams in history. There are plenty of dry spells in Pirate history. It would seem unfair to exclude a player's number from retirement if he didn't have post-season playing time. Still, this could be a strong factor when considering the retirement of a player's number.

The player must be a Club Record Holder, or important to franchise history:

Now, we're getting warmer. How important was the player to franchise history? Murtaugh won two World Series as a Pirate manager. Maz's shot heard 'round Schenley Park, Clemente/Stargell's MVP awards from the World Series are all factors. Kiner led the franchise in Homers before Stargell came along. Wagner, Clemente, Stargell top the team's charts in several categories.

Perhaps we should measure a player's longevity with the franchise. What if we looked at Games played as a Pirate? We might have to add a few candidates in this area:
Max Carey, Paul Waner, Lloyd Waner, Tommy Leach, Fred Clarke.

So what is the criteria with which to judge whether or not to retire a player's number?

Hall of Fame election?
A Full career with the same club?
Post Season play with the franchise?
Club record holder?

Perhaps a combination of all of these factors in various weights is really required. Only one criteria doesn't make a player a candidate for a retired number; nor does missing one area exclude a player either.

With that in mind, here are a few Bucco candidates for number/name retirement:
Paul Waner: Hall of Famer (#11)
1st in franchise Batting Average
2nd in Runs, 2nd in Doubles, 2nd in Triples
3rd in At Bats, 3rd in Hits
5th in RBIs
6th in games
3 NL batting titles, hitting .300 or better 14 times; and he collected 200 or more hits on eight occasions. NL MVP in 1927.
Played for the 1927 NL Champs.
15 of his 20 ML seasons were in Pittsburgh

Fred Clarke: Hall of Famer (retire his name)

Most games as a manager, most wins, best managing percentage
10th in Games Played
5th in Triples
8th in Runs
10th in At Bats
4th in Stolen Bases
Following the Louisville-Pittsburgh merger in 1900, he directed the Pirates to three successive pennants and then to a World Championship in 1909.
15 of his 21 ML seasons were in Pittsburgh.

Max Carey: Hall of Famer (retire his name)

4th in Games Played, 4th in At Bats, 4th in Runs
5th in Hits, 5th in Doubles
6th in Triples
10 times he led the league in Steals
Played for the 1925 World Series Champs
Almost 17 of his 20 years were in Pittsburgh.

I think this would be a nice touch to recall the team's rich history as we move toward the new century and a new ballpark. We could retire one number/name per year as we move towards the opening of the new ballpark. Also, we could recognize Recreation and Exposition Parks sites with a simple plaque. One ceremony in 1998, one in 1999, one in 2000, and the Bucs are in the new ballpark for April 2001!

A few comments from the February 1997 PirateFest:

At PirateFest, I asked Mr McC if he planned to recognize the old ballparks that were on the north side with some sort of plaque. I recommended retiring some uniform numbers/names and mentioned P Waner, Clarke, Carey. I recommended (asked about) a Pirates Hall of Fame in the new ballpark (to display all the wonderful stuff at PirateFest); they could add the Pirate HOF to the ballpark tour - or, I asked if they planned to reopen the TRS HOF. His response was there would be a HOF in the new ballpark.
Mike Emeigh (mwe@nomos.com) added:
I agree with Glenn that Paul Waner's number should also be retired. However, I think at least part of the reason that it wasn't retired is that there is no strong association between Paul Waner and Pittsburgh. In just about all of the other cases, there is a very strong association between the player and the team, or between the player and the city (remember Pie Traynor's commercials for American Heating?). When Paul Waner left Pittsburgh, he never came back here, and the fans never really had a chance to adopt him as they did Traynor, for example. It also didn't help that Paul Waner never played on a World Series winner for the Bucs. The only other player with a retired number who never played on a World Champ was Kiner, and Ralph's Home Run achievements are unique in Buc history (although Willie's career totals are better, Kiner's single season total and 7 straight years leading the league while playing for the Bucs are much more impressive to me).
John Hissrich (ForbzField@AOL.COM) added:
One of the points of this discussion is that there need not be any real criterion-- as the different teams' approaches show. If we set up any criteria, we deprive ourselves of some really good arguments. :-)
Granted, it is terribly subjective. Maybe, for example, Frank Robinson did play longer for Cincy than for Baltimore. But after teaming up with Brooks as the Robinson brothers (remember the Lite Beer ads), I think most of us think of him with the O's. So maybe Paul Waner was more deserving than Kiner, but during the down years, people used to stay just for Kiner's last at-bat. You can't reduce that to numbers or logic, but it is a real argument on Kiner's behalf.
Of course, none of that is meant to argue against Waner but only to say that part of the fun of retired numbers is that it is subjective.
But to add one more point, I've always hoped to fine *someone* who knew why Meyers' number was retired. I don't know whether the rest of you have disappointed me or whether you make me feel better at not being able to find a reason.
James Sullivan (jimsul-pyrates@WEBTV.NET) added the following about Billy Meyer and (later) Paul Waner:
According to the Pirate Media Guide Meyer's number was retired in 1954. I've got all the Pirate yearbooks from 1951 (the original) until 1962, plus others. If Meyer's number was retired in 1954 how come there was no mention of it in the yearbook until 1958? In 1957 there was a full page in the yearbook devoted to Meyer due to his death (but no mention of his uniform number being retired) and then the following year at the bottom of the roster (for the first time) his number was mentioned as being retired. I've always felt (and it's just that) that the Galbreath family felt guilty that they brought Branch Rickey and his son (who controlled the minor league teams) in to rebuild the Buccos which deprived Billy Meyer of any chance to field a decent club.
Rickey's plan was an unmitigated disaster (100 losses in three consecutive years) so Meyer had no opportunity to win and therefore stepped down (or was pushed) to the title of "Managerial Consultant" which he retained for a couple of years while also doing some scouting. His health then became bad and he died. Since Meyer had a good minor league mangerial record and Galbreath deprived the very popular Meyer in his only major league opportunity, plus the fact that Billy chose to stay within the Pirate organization until his health failed. All this, in my opinion, led Galbreath to retire his number upon his death, but then to post date it back to the time that Billy was still active in the organization as a "Managerial Consultant" which would have been under Branch Rickey's watch and not Joe Brown.
I would like to see Paul Waner's number retired for a different reason: He earned it!
There are 12 Pirates (with long-time service) in the Hall of Fame. IMO, 6 came in the front door via the baseball writers, and 6 came in the back door via the Veteran's Committee. Of the six that were voted in expeditiously, only Paul Waner has not had his number retired by the Pirates. The other 5 have: Wagner, Traynor, Clemente, Kiner and Stargell.
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